RV Tire Recommendation

[five]

On 11/15/2017 at 2:16 PM, RayIN said:

.... I've read of many Michelin tire failures, plus the sidewall cracking flaw...

 

The cracking on the Michelin sidewall is not always a "flaw."  I recently attended a seminar on RV tires (the presenter was not from Michelin) who said Michelin puts an additive in their tires to reduce dry rot.  When parked for an extended period of time, this additive shows up as cracking on the sidewall.  However, once out on the road and driven, the cracking disappears.  Having noted some cracking on my tires what he said was true....once driven, the cracking disappeared.

[tireman9]

To my knowledge, all tire companies put chemicals in their tires to prevent attack by Ozone and UV. Different levels of different chemicals are used for a variety of reasons so it is almost impossible to confirm any claim of 'We use more". without knowing more than what?

What is also true is that many times the RV owner themselves can cause an increase in cracking. This can result from the use of chemicals or cleaners that actually remove the protectants on the tire outer surface so the very act of "shining up" or "Cleaning" the tire so it looks better can result in more cracking due to rubber degradation as time goes on.

In addition to Ozone and UV, heat can also degrade the rubber and I have never seen ANY tire treatment that can lower a tire's temperature other than maybe spraying it with white latex paint (I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS)

White cover or a mesh screen will keep the tire cooler which will increase tire life. I have posted the test results on my blog. Keeping the temperature down will also extend belt life and there is no tire treatment that can do that.

 

[elkhartjim]

Tireman,

I'm curious in all your testing, have you done a 5-7 year test on a tire covered and uncovered? Same tire, same motorhome, same side, same use. The only difference would be one of course would be on a dual axle.

My last motorhome is the only one I changed tires on due to age. I changed at 6 years, 46,000 miles. The motorhome was stored outside in the Texas sun and the tires were never covered and the tread showed hardly any wear when I changed them out. They were 22.5" Goodyear G670's, inflated according to 4 corner weight. I cleaned them with water and used 303 Protector on them.

My reason for the question is, what would a tire cover have done for me? They were not showing any visible cracks at the time of replacement. Tire covers can be a pain to use and to store not to mention a muddy mess in rainy weather. My point, if the tires had been covered or not and regardless of their appearance, I would still have replaced them at the 6 year mark. Now if I could get 7, 8, 9 years or so, I would see a benefit if covering them.

I appreciate you responding and Happy Thanksgiving.

[manholt]

Jim.  Excellent question, that I also have pondered over the years! 

I just changed the tires (original) on a Club Car, Golf Cart that's a 1995 model (belongs to Linda), it's been all over her ranch and since it's a gas motor driven, it's always has been parked where ever, mostly outside!  I would think those tires would be dust by now?  Nope, I changed them for better traction. 

[rayin]

13 hours ago, FIVE said:

The cracking on the Michelin sidewall is not always a "flaw."  I recently attended a seminar on RV tires (the presenter was not from Michelin) who said Michelin puts an additive in their tires to reduce dry rot.  When parked for an extended period of time, this additive shows up as cracking on the sidewall.  However, once out on the road and driven, the cracking disappears.  Having noted some cracking on my tires what he said was true....once driven, the cracking disappeared.

Whomever said the sidewall cracks disappear when driving will need to prove that to Michelin, otherwise why are they replacing tires under warranty for excessive sidewall cracking.

[wolfe10]

Ray,

I agree with you-- suspect the attendee misunderstood the tire seminar presenter. Hope that is the case rather than the presenter giving bad information.

The emoluments in tires that help protect it from cracking do migrate to the surface when driven and do help protect the tire from cracking.

But there is no "cure" for cracking.

So it is a matter of slowing down the process that one achieves by proper "care and feeding" of their tires.

[five]

7 hours ago, wolfe10 said:

Ray,

I agree with you-- suspect the attendee misunderstood the tire seminar presenter. Hope that is the case rather than the presenter giving bad information.

The emoluments in tires that help protect it from cracking do migrate to the surface when driven and do help protect the tire from cracking.

But there is no "cure" for cracking.

So it is a matter of slowing down the process that one achieves by proper "care and feeding" of their tires.

No misunderstanding.  The presenter was asked several questions from those of us with Michelins.  He reiterated his comments as being the facts as he got them from Michelin.  The cracking is not the tires themselves, but the additive in the tire.   Many in the seminar remained skeptical, however, as noted in my earlier post, the cracking in my tires disappeared after driving on them.  In response to an earlier poster mentioning Michelin replacing them after cracking....I would think they would do that when the cracking would not disappear after driving on them.

[wolfe10]

Interesting.  If I can get my fingernail into a crack in the sidewall of a tire, it IS the tire and not an additive (and I replace it).

[wildebill308]

Here is an example of sidewall cracking that didn't go away after it started 5 years before this picture. Covered most of the time and wiped down with 303. Just saying I would need to see more evidence of the cracks disappearing when driven.  Next time take some pictures before and after.

 

[tireman9]

2 hours ago, WILDEBILL308 said:

Here is an example of sidewall cracking that didn't go away after it started 5 years before this picture. Covered most of the time and wiped down with 303. Just saying I would need to see more evidence of the cracks disappearing when driven.  Next time take some pictures before and after.

 

 

 

I cannot imagine those cracks "healing" themselves. IMO those tires should be or have been replaced.

RE The presenter statements about the cracks going away.  I think the answer "The cracking is not the tires themselves, but the additive in the tire. " was not completely understood by the folks in the seminar.

The protective chemicals built into a tire is a wax-like material when you get it in volume it may look more like candle wax or beeswax in its raw state.

Yes, this "wax" migrates to the surface and it helps protect the tire surface rubber from attack by Ozone and UV. Under certain conditions, I can see the wax if thick enough possibly giving the appearance of "cracking" but the depth of those cracks would probably be in the range of 0.01" to 0.03" deep.  I have also seen tires turn "brown" as the chemicals move to the surface and interact with UV and Ozone. On a small sidewall passenger tire, you probably do not notice the discoloration or the small surface cracks in the rubber. But when you have a 22.5" tire the "canvas" is larger and there are wide areas of sidewall now presented 2' closer to your eye level as you walk around your vehicle so even small cracks catch your attention.

 

RE "cleaning" of the tire sidewall. While it is a good idea to remove road oils from your tires as you would remove those materials from your paint job, you need to be careful to not do too much scrubbing or rubbing as the abrasion will remove the wax protectants that have moved to the surface. Yes, a shiny "wet" look is something people seem to want to see but I know that I have seen more than one coach at FMCA Conventions just shining with excessive "Tire Shine" material. In one case I ran my fingernail across the sidewall and it came away with a  small oily "lump" of material that looked and felt like a mixture of oil and something like brake fluid.

You may wash your tire and wipe it down with some "shine" material but that "wipe-down" is probably removing the tire wax.

 

You say the cracking started 5 years before the picture was taken. So how old were the tires? 9 years or more?

[tireman9]

On 11/23/2017 at 1:59 PM, elkhartjim said:

Tireman,

I'm curious in all your testing, have you done a 5-7 year test on a tire covered and uncovered? Same tire, same motorhome, same side, same use. The only difference would be one of course would be on a dual axle.

My last motorhome is the only one I changed tires on due to age. I changed at 6 years, 46,000 miles. The motorhome was stored outside in the Texas sun and the tires were never covered and the tread showed hardly any wear when I changed them out. They were 22.5" Goodyear G670's, inflated according to 4 corner weight. I cleaned them with water and used 303 Protector on them.

My reason for the question is, what would a tire cover have done for me? They were not showing any visible cracks at the time of replacement. Tire covers can be a pain to use and to store not to mention a muddy mess in rainy weather. My point, if the tires had been covered or not and regardless of their appearance, I would still have replaced them at the 6 year mark. Now if I could get 7, 8, 9 years or so, I would see a benefit if covering them.

I appreciate you responding and Happy Thanksgiving.

Maybe a better question might be to ask those companies with R&D budget who are advertising and making claims about the protective nature of the material they are selling, where are the pictures and data from their controlled testing?.  

There is no question in my mind that protecting tires from direct exposure to Heat, Ozone, and UV is a good thing. I have seen tires completely destroyed by being in an Ozone chamber. Tire companies have test fixtures that can expose samples to UV, and of course, we all know that heat can accelerate the aging and loss of strength of rubber. On my 2008 MH the gel coat on the fiberglass side that was always parked toward the south developed cracks to the point that I needed that side re-painted while the side away from the Sun was OK.

I have written in my blog about both white vinyl covers that I use on my Class-C and just last Oct presented the data and showed the advantages of using Mesh material which for large Class-A Motorhomes is probably easier to handle. Maybe you might want to review some of my posts.

 

External cracking I have seen on RV tires even as bad as in this post does not constitute a "failure" of the tire. You can still drive on them. BUT the external cracking can be used as a predictor of probable loss of strength of the internal structural rubber and as such should be considered a warning of increased potential structural failure such as a belt separation.

 

Maybe you can think of sidewall cracking as you might think of high blood pressure reading. Do high readings mean you will have a heart attack in the next 10 minutes? Probably not but high readings do suggest that you may need to take action (surgery or stent or at least some drugs that can control the high pressure) and for tires, they indicate that you need to plan on replacing the subject tire.

[tireman9]

On 11/15/2017 at 3:16 PM, RayIN said:

I've read of many Michelin tire failures, plus the sidewall cracking flaw.

 

 

Ray, you need to careful with data. It is probably true that a majority of FMCA owners have Michelin tires so obviously a majority of the tire failure reports would also probably be Michelin brand. Also are you certain that the analysis of any failures was done by some trained in failed tire analysis and can differentiate between a structural failure and a failure due to low inflation and/or overload?

[tireman9]

4 hours ago, wolfe10 said:

Interesting.  If I can get my fingernail into a crack in the sidewall of a tire, it IS the tire and not an additive (and I replace it).

Yup.  That's a reasonable practice I would follow.

[rayin]

1 hour ago, tireman9 said:

Ray, you need to careful with data. It is probably true that a majority of FMCA owners have Michelin tires so obviously a majority of the tire failure reports would also probably be Michelin brand. Also are you certain that the analysis of any failures was done by some trained in failed tire analysis and can differentiate between a structural failure and a failure due to low inflation and/or overload?

I agree, data can be manipulated to convey different results.

I have read several posts on irv2.com  by Michelin owners who have had their tires replaced under warranty for excessive sidewall cracking.

Michelin defines sidewall cracking on page 27(last page) of their Michelin RV tires brochure.

[wildebill308]

13 hours ago, tireman9 said:

You say the cracking started 5 years before the picture was taken. So how old were the tires? 9 years or more?

They were replaced this summer. The sidewalls have looked much like that since I got this coach. They were 7.4 years old.

Now we will see how the new Continentals hold up.

[manholt]

Only if you still have the coach in 7.4 years! LOL

[five]

19 hours ago, WILDEBILL308 said:

Here is an example of sidewall cracking that didn't go away after it started 5 years before this picture. Covered most of the time and wiped down with 303. Just saying I would need to see more evidence of the cracks disappearing when driven.  Next time take some pictures before and after.

 

This side wall cracking is much different and larger than the 'cracks' in my Michelins I noted earlier.  My cracks were not longitudinal and much smaller in size, more like a spider crack in a windshield...and not deep enough to get a finger nail or virtually anything else inside.  Obviously we are talking about two entirely different types and sizes of cracks.  If it happens again, I'll take a picture.

[elkhartjim]

17 hours ago, tireman9 said:

Maybe a better question might be to ask those companies with R&D budget who are advertising and making claims about the protective nature of the material they are selling, where are the pictures and data from their controlled testing?.  

Maybe they don't have any controlled testing data. My experience using 303 has been it makes the tires look better without harming the tires.

 

17 hours ago, tireman9 said:

There is no question in my mind that protecting tires from direct exposure to Heat, Ozone, and UV is a good thing. I have seen tires completely destroyed by being in an Ozone chamber. Tire companies have test fixtures that can expose samples to UV, and of course, we all know that heat can accelerate the aging and loss of strength of rubber. On my 2008 MH the gel coat on the fiberglass side that was always parked toward the south developed cracks to the point that I needed that side re-painted while the side away from the Sun was OK.

Of course exposure to the elements is not a good thing. I'm surprised you are comparing gel coat to a rubber tire. I've seen 50 year old boats that other than the dark of night never saw a shade. They may have been faded but there were no cracks. My 2008 motorhome that I took delivery of August 2007 and sold in August 2017 did not have a crack in the fiberglass finish after being stored in the heat, uv and ozone near the Houston area. Probably some other nasty stuff in the air also.

 

17 hours ago, tireman9 said:

I have written in my blog about both white vinyl covers that I use on my Class-C and just last Oct presented the data and showed the advantages of using Mesh material which for large Class-A Motorhomes is probably easier to handle. Maybe you might want to review some of my posts.

I did read your blog prior to my original post. That is why I asked my questions. I understand and agree that a tire exposed to the elements will deteriorate over time. I still have the same question, what does covering my tires buy me?  I can safely estimate seeing maybe one coach with tires covered out of every 100+ coaches I see. Maybe those folks have my same question, what does it buy me?

Thanks for your response.

[wayne77590]

My 2008 fiberglass full body paint looked as good as it did when I bought it in 2008. No cracks and never a brush applied, just microfiber clothes.

Unfortunately the new to us 2015 has swirl marks where someone didn't know what they were doing when washing or waxing.

My tires after 8 years had minimal sidewall cracking, less than a fingernail width.

I did decide to cover them for week long stays beginning in 2016 and then Harvey flooded it.  Darn, new tires in 2016 and flooded in 2017. Only replaced them for peace of mind.

[manholt]

Wayne.  You now, have peace...UUUUMMMM!

Jim.  I'm with you and waiting on a answer, that I don't think we will ever get, or at least a definitive test result...other than, the PC version!

[wildebill308]

11 hours ago, wayne77590 said:

My 2008 fiberglass full body paint looked as good as it did when I bought it in 2008. No cracks and never a brush applied, just microfiber clothes.

Unfortunately the new to us 2015 has swirl marks where someone didn't know what they were doing when washing or waxing.

My tires after 8 years had minimal sidewall cracking, less than a fingernail width.

I did decide to cover them for week long stays beginning in 2016 and then Harvey flooded it.  Darn, new tires in 2016 and flooded in 2017. Only replaced them for peace of mind.

You may be able to polish some of the swirl marks out. 

Well hope the insurance payed enough for the new tires. How are the ones on the new coach. I wonder if you could swap with the old coach.

Bill

 

[kaypsmith]

If anyone is interested in a cheap tire cover that works well, coraplast is the material that sign makers use to make those temporary sign that show up all over the place during an election season. Most of the sign shops keep lots of it on hand and it comes in many colors, mostly white. It can be cut with a pair of scissors and can be folded for easy storage. I use white and cut to fit inside the wheel well from the ground up, stiff enough to stand alone  and no straps needed if the fit is good. Just a little almost on the same subject.

[manholt]

Kay, Brett, Tireman.

How do we know that a tire cover really extends the sidewall life and integrity of the tires?  Is there a graph or any form of proof other than "I'm a expert and I say so"?  I keep forgetting to put my covers on...my tires, since I bought them are 39 months old and per DOT 41 months old.  When I bought my brand new, off the shelf, 2011 Allegro Bus with 744 miles on it...I did not think to even wonder about the DOT (don't think anyone else does), later on (after a DS blow out), I found out, they where June 2009, chassis was 2/2010 !  Since then, I found that to be the average on a new coach.  Exception would be a Newell since they build their own chassis in several lengths from the ground up, per order!  As to age of tires, flip a coin!

I like many others here, get new tires around 6+ years.  Peace of mind for me.  I give the old ones to a friend, who puts them on trailers and most are still rolling, some since 2002!  I have never seen 18 wheeler+ or Horse trailers with tire covers on!  You would not want your race horses or Clydesdales, splattered on the Interstate!

Since this has to do with tires, please no more comparison with Gelcoat, Fiberglass or roofing material.

[ispjs]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 7:28 PM, WILDEBILL308 said:

Here is an example of sidewall cracking that didn't go away after it started 5 years before this picture. Covered most of the time and wiped down with 303. Just saying I would need to see more evidence of the cracks disappearing when driven.  Next time take some pictures before and after.

 

To each his own, but I wouldn't bend down to wipe 303 on a tire that looked like that let alone drive the coach they were on!  That is like driving your rig with the fuel gauge on empty just to see how far it will actually keep going.  Not safe IMHO.  Back in the day if I stopped a commercial vehicle with steer axle tires like that I would take the vehicle out of service and it would not move until the tires were replaced.  But like I said, to each his own, maybe the pic makes it look worse than it is.

[wayne77590]

14 hours ago, WILDEBILL308 said:

You may be able to polish some of the swirl marks out. 

Well hope the insurance payed enough for the new tires. How are the ones on the new coach. I wonder if you could swap with the old coach.

Bill

 

Yes, I'm thinking some of it can be polished out but then I have to find someone to polish it for me.  Whare are you parked?

Insurance paid off my totaled MH and gave me enough for a good down payment on newer one for me.

Progressive insurance has a plan where in the first 5 years they will replace the MH with an equivalent from the same manufacturer. After 5 years they give you what you paid for it.  After 9 years I was in the later category.  We did alright.  What they offer is basically the same as GAP insurance...and you never need it until you need it and in our case it paid off.

I had given thought to taking the tires off the 2008 but there was no way I could personally do it myself and it would have been another cost for us to have someone do it.  Then, how do they tow it off.   Hey, it is what it is and then it is what you make of it, rght?