Cummins ISL 8.9 450hp Aftermarket Chip For Increased Performance

[keigm]

Does anyone have any experience with the after-market chips increasing the performance on their diesel pushers?  I’ve got a 14 Mountain Aire with the  Cummings ISL 8.9 450 hp pusher and have heard about some of the chips improving performance of hp and torque up to 20%.  It would be nice to climb some of the hills a little easier but not if there would be damage to the engine or transmission.  

Thanks in advance.

[dickandlois]

4 hours ago, Keigm said:

Does anyone have any experience with the after-market chips increasing the performance on their diesel pushers?  I’ve got a 14 Mountain Aire with the  Cummings ISL 8.9 450 hp pusher and have heard about some of the chips improving performance of hp and torque up to 20%.  It would be nice to climb some of the hills a little easier but not if there would be damage to the engine or transmission.  

Thanks in advance.

One can get a number of items that will increase HP and Torque, but will the changes meet the EPA guidelines when it is time to pass an emission test. Every engine builder in the world is trying to meet their requirements. VW Diesel tried and failed - cost them big time !!!!! Cat just got out of the market and stayed in the off road equipment line.

 The items one must consider like you mentioned and is the trade off worth the extra cost. 

You could invest in a custom engine and transmission and add all kinds of power.  Not within the Reach of many owners.

I'm thinking that overall - you might be using 40% of what the HP and Torque is with the stock setup and if you customize the drive train, you get into looking for shops that understand how and what might be causing issues down the road. Cummings might cover the engine if it is not reworked to much ?  Allison 4000 transmission will handle about anything you power it with,  but you get into custom software in some cases. 

I refer it to as the domino effect. Change something and how many other items need to be modified. 

Rich.

[wolfe10]

Assume you have the Allison 3000.

[keigm]

3 hours ago, wolfe10 said:

Assume you have the Allison 3000.

Correct, it is the Allison 3000.

[manholt]

With the mountain air chassis and 450, good assumption, it's a 3000 and yea, you can chip it thru Cummins to 495, but it will still be the same torque!  I asked on my 425 and that's the answer I got.  I did ask if they could put in a bigger engine and Allison 4000...$40K+, I said no thanks!

[keigm]

I don’t blame you.

[fagnaml]

I know this is an old thread and don't know if Keigm ever installed an after market tuning chip but thought I would just add to this thread.   While COVID-19 cabin fever grows, I had a delirious moment wondering if I should try a Magnum EVO tuning chip for the 360 HP Cummins ISB 6.7 L in my 2016 Newmar Ventana LE -->https://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detail/evo-tech-heavy-duty-performance-chip .  

Since I can't take the MH any where enjoyable until the economy re-opens, my eldest son and I could install this "DIY" tuning chip one weekend soon.  My Ventana LE has the six speed Allison 3000 MH transmission so no concern about an advertised 15% increase in HP and torque.   One question I haven't seen posted / answered is would a tuning chip cause the engine cooling system to become overloaded?   The Ventana LE has a rear radiator / charge air cooler.   

The forum's thoughts please about this Magnum brand tuning chip and thoughts about engine cooling system capability with a 15% (+/-) increase in HP and torque.   Thanks!

[dickandlois]

2 hours ago, fagnaml said:

I know this is an old thread and don't know if Keigm ever installed an after market tuning chip but thought I would just add to this thread.   While COVID-19 cabin fever grows, I had a delirious moment wondering if I should try a Magnum EVO tuning chip for the 360 HP Cummins ISB 6.7 L in my 2016 Newmar Ventana LE -->https://www.magnumtuning.com/en/detail/evo-tech-heavy-duty-performance-chip .  

Since I can't take the MH any where enjoyable until the economy re-opens, my eldest son and I could install this "DIY" tuning chip one weekend soon.  My Ventana LE has the six speed Allison 3000 MH transmission so no concern about an advertised 15% increase in HP and torque.   One question I haven't seen posted / answered is would a tuning chip cause the engine cooling system to become overloaded?   The Ventana LE has a rear radiator / charge air cooler.   

The forum's thoughts please about this Magnum brand tuning chip and thoughts about engine cooling system capability with a 15% (+/-) increase in HP and torque.   Thanks!

A little number crunching and the percentage increase  might offer some usable information. If one knows the total cooling capacity of the system.( ?)

For example, here's how to convert 5 mechanical horsepower to btu per hour using the formula.

5 hp(I) = (5 × 2,544.434187) = 12,722.170934 Btu/h

Rich.

[wildebill308]

Fagnaml, You made me smile and remember some of my experimentation increasing power in the "B" series engine. I have a 2003 5.9 RV Cummins Diesel in a 38N Bounder. Don't let them confuse you as they are basically different engines than the "Dodge" Cummins engines.

I used Banks Engineering products https://www.bankspower.com/. I don't think they are making tuners for motorhomes any more.

The thing I liked about  Banks was they would build it then run it  on a dyno and publish the results. Most of these outher places brag about all their "Engineering" but don't offer proof "trust me" only goes so far with me. 

The absolute FIRST thing you need is a accurate properly installed Exhaust Gas Temperature probe (EGT) and a accurate easy to read gage. Your EGT can  go way above safe limits long, long before your water  temps go up and do it quickly. You can have high EGT on stock engines. If you don't  have a gage you will never know. Most damage to your turbo are cumulative and will take a while to show up.

Something else you need to be aware of is you have a DPF and they can be quickly plugged up adding a tuner. Most tuners add more fuel that = more soot.

I have run or tried to run the water/ methanol injection system to.

I finally settled down and dialed everything to max MPG. Mileage was running a little better than in the stock setting. For 8,820.0 miles in 2019, I got 8.74 MPG.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Bill 

[manholt]

Mike.

Joe L. told me a year ago, "don't go by the HP, go by torque!"  So, my current coach is 600 HP,  torque is 2050 ft. lbs.  The new 605 HP is scaled back to 1950 torque...suppose to be better MPG.  Not according to several friends that has the 605!  Their getting an avg of 6.7 MPG against mine at 7.3 MPG !

The ISM 450 that Bill has now, puts out much more torque, than the normal 1,200 torque, that you get on a Series 400 engine!   Mike, I think your getting 850 torque.  I don't know how much your coach weight.

[jleamont]

Personally I wouldn't touch it. Modified power goes up, reliability can go down, (seesaw effect) especially if the driver is not conscientious and watching the exhaust & coolant temperatures. I know from experience with Cummins, the more HP and torque the more air flow required around the engine, on a DP that would be a tough one to overcome and I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised of that was already lacking.  

[manholt]

Joe, Mike's coach is not a side radiator, that does make cooling an issue!  When I had the 2007 WB Tour, it was rear radiator with a ISM 400 and cooling was an issue on hills and hot days.

[hermanmullins]

I am still a believer that the Engineers know what is the best power to rate ratios are. But we still have old Hot Rodders out there that all they want is moo power. 

Overkill is just what it say, OVERKILL.

RVs are the same as cars just bigger. When you put in a engine with more HP, then you need a heavier transmission, and then a stronger rear end, and the list goes on.

If you don't like dancing with who you brought, take her home and get a different dance partner.

Herman

[rls7201]

Ya just never know what performance improvements will bring with them.
My 1995 F53 Bounder 460 cu in engine turned into a stroked 528 cu in engine with increased compression, RV cam, mild porting, higher flow injectors, Banks Power Pack exhaust and a TwEECer tuner. Transmission got a shift kit.
Stock radiator and fan clutch, with no cooling problems from below sea level to 11,000 ft.
There have been many successful HP increases on oil burners with no cooling problems. An exhaust temperature monitor is a must.

Richard

[manholt]

Richard,

Big difference between your 32 foot, gas coach and a 40 to 45 foot DP!  Both Joe/Herman is dead on!  

[wildebill308]

Richard, I was working on a slightly bigger stroker when I ended up buying my 5.9 cummins. I had done the work on the heads including upgrading to stainless exhaust valves and seats. port and polished and CC matched the combustion chambers opened up and cleaned up the intake and exhaust runners. 

I kind of wished I had finished that project just to see how the finished package ran.

Bill

 

[fagnaml]

Thanks for the responses!   Consensus looks to be a 'tuner' can bring more problems than benefits.  If I want a little more HP/torque/speed climbing big hills / bridges  I'll just make the wife drive the Jeep.  Thank would make her happy (??)

[rayin]

Mike, IMO the biggest problem is cylinder heat. Aluminum begins to melt at 1,220°F; pistons are aluminum, and oll-cooled.  With a pyrometer in the exhaust manifold, 1300° is the maximum temperature, then an immediate back down of the throttle is required. Without a pyrometer in the exhaust manifold one is flying blind, so to speak.

In case you do decide to increase HP and torque, this is the maximum ratings  for Allison transmissions.

[manholt]

Mike, leave wife in coach, all you got to do is downshift & maintain RPM's!  Happy wife/happy life!

[manholt]

RayIN, just looked at your Allison Link...the 3000 has a max capacity for 1,750 torque, with a torque converter!  Not listed.  The ISM 380 engine put out 1,700 Ft Lbs and used the A3000!

[wildebill308]

5 hours ago, fagnaml said:

Thanks for the responses!   Consensus looks to be a 'tuner' can bring more problems than benefits.  If I want a little more HP/torque/speed climbing big hills / bridges  I'll just make the wife drive the Jeep.  Thank would make her happy (??)

I would still recommend installing a pyrometer in the exhaust manifold before the turbo. 

I hate to be on the doom and gloom side but with your projected gains you may never see that big of a increase in speed over big hills/bridges. Where do you find bridges that slow you down? I don't  know your experience level driving big vehicles but you are never going to get it to perform like your car. 

The best advice is to learn how to drive your RV so you get the best performance from it. When you see your EGT start to climb on a hill manually downshift. The rule of thumb is if you can't maintain or accelerate in a gear downshift till you can. This will control your EGT.  Then you can maintain a safe RPM till you are over the hill. One outher tip, don't start down a steep hill in a gear higher than you came up. 

This will prevent us from reading your Obit where it said  "I'll just make the wife drive the Jeep."

Bill 

[wolfe10]

To see how much HP you need to go 5 MPH faster on that 6% grade, read this: http://forum.dieselrvclub.org/index.php?topic=6594.0

 

Page 7.  Just the FACTS, JACK.

 

Bottom line, not worth it!

[rls7201]

13 hours ago, manholt said:

Richard,

Big difference between your 32 foot, gas coach and a 40 to 45 foot DP!  Both Joe/Herman is dead on!  

You right those 40- 45 ft DPs come with a lot bigger radiators than my ol gas coach and those diesel engines are a lot more durable than my gas engine.

But there are a lot of tuned diesels running up and down the road with no issues. I remember when those old 8.3 Cummins we tuned to 250 HP from the factory and folks said not to raise the HP or they would break. Go figure.
Remember when over the road diesels didn't have turbochargers and then the factory added them and the drivers said those engines wouldn't stand that type of abuse? 

Richard

[hermanmullins]

7 hours ago, RLS7201 said:

Remember when over the road diesels didn't have turbochargers and then the factory added them and the drivers said those engines wouldn't stand that type of abuse? 

Richard

Richard,

Sorry but when the factories added components to their engine they didn't just stick something on and hope for the best. They took the time to engineer and test their engines to make sure the changes would work and last.

Herman

[jleamont]

Richard, I am not saying it WILL damage the engine, the point that MUST be considered here; You absolutely must be on your toes with a modified modern diesel engine watching gauges while driving. You can literally sink your foot to destruction really fast in a modern day diesel that has been modified if you are not thinking clearly. You also must understand how everything works as you step harder into the throttle and know what its going to translate on the gauges. Most motor heads (like myself) probably would have a problem, the average "joe" will destroy an engine, I have witnessed it first hand. 

Today's diesels are NOT built like the ones that gave the diesel engine its good name. The foundation is built to withstand slightly more than the power it produces, some will argue that they are not even built to withstand that much power when you see one with catastrophic failure and no obvious root cause. They are now built to be lighter in weight to help curve emissions and fuel consumption which equates to less robust internal parts right down to the block, some are even multi-piece blocks with portions made in aluminum bolted together.