Lithium Batteries and Solar Upgrade

[chp007kd40]

My appointment for 800ah Lithium battery and solar upgrade is not until late July. Has anyone installed this type of system, and what advice can you give me as to brand quality, charging issues etc.? It is going into my Itasca Horizon 40 KD DP. I have four golf cart type batteries and they don't do so well dry camping. We just installed a 19cu.in. residential fridge, so my needs are greater now.

I have been quoted $7,500 just for the battery install. I would appreciate any feedback. 

 

[kaypsmith]

$7500.00 just for 800ah battery install? This seems very pricey. Is there enough room to add 4 more golf cart batteries, this will double your capacity, ie., double the dry camp ability. If you are going to just 800ah lithium, that is about what doubling your four will do. Solar upgrade may well be in order for keeping batteries charged, but I would rethink the battery upgrade for that amount of money.

[dickandlois]

8 hours ago, chp007kd40 said:

My appointment for 800ah Lithium battery and solar upgrade is not until late July. Has anyone installed this type of system and what advise can you give me as to brand quality, charging issues etc.. It is going into my Itasca Horizon 40 KD DP. I have four golf card type batteries and they don't do so well dry camping. We just installed a 19cu.in. residential fridge so my needs are greater now.

I have been quoted $7500.00 just for the battery install. I would appreciate any feedback. 

 

Lithium Battery

 

Have not installed or used them in the application you are asking about.

 

                Aging is a concern with most lithium-ion batteries and many manufacturers remain silent about this issue. Some capacity deterioration is noticeable after one year, whether the battery is in use or not. The battery frequently fails after two or three years. It should be noted that other chemistries also have age-related degenerative effects. This is especially true for nickel-metal-hydride if exposed to high ambient temperatures. At the same time, lithium-ion packs are known to have served for five years in some applications. 

The only way that I’m aware of to really extend lithium battery life is to limit the charging current and to only charge them to 80 to 90 % of maximum charge. Storing them at cooler temperatures is also recommended.

They are very good at suppling high current for limited periods of time. Under long continuous loads at lower currents and they tend to hold up quite well.

 Considering the cost of a 200AH / 12.8-volt Battery. They run around $2,000 each. One might want to think of using Gel cells or AGM Batteries. The life expectancy of all these batteries is very close.

The real question is knowing what kind of load are you placing on the cells. High loads to a steady even load over an extended time?

Then what type of charging system, Solar, Running the generator with a dedicated charger also powered from shore power. The next item is charging them while on the road?  What kind of setup would fit the charging requirements? They are used in electric cars, but the manufactures do invest heavily in the charging systems and they do tend to limit the maximum charge levels with software. this setup allows them to constantly monitor the battery condition and the software changes the charging level in an effort to extend battery life.   

            Advantages

High energy density - potential for yet higher capacities. (the chemistry is still evolving)
 

Does not need prolonged priming when new. One regular charge is all that's needed.
 

Relatively low self-discharge - self-discharge is less than half that of nickel-based batteries.
 

Low Maintenance - no periodic discharge is needed; there is no memory.
 

Specialty cells can provide very high current to applications such as power tools.

 

Limitations

Requires protection circuit to maintain voltage and current within safe limits.
 

Subject to aging, even if not in use - storage in a cool place at 40% charge reduces the aging effect.
  

Expensive to manufacture - about 40 percent higher in cost than nickel-cadmium.
 

Not fully mature - metals and chemicals are changing on a continuing basis

 

Hope this helps a little to answer your question.

Rich

[desertdeals69]

Unless you have to be an early adopter I would wait until they have proven themselves.  Until they figure out why they catch on fire I would stay away from them.  An airline switched all their credit card machines to lithium and one caught fire in the galley so they immediately took them out of service.  Also e cigarettes are have the same problem.

[tbutler]

I've never heard of a lithium battery application in a motor home.  I would find some other way to increase your battery storage capacity if at all possible.  Additional conventional batteries are the normal way to increase storage.  You could install more batteries or you could try to increase the size of the batteries.  Lifeline which makes AGM batteries have a number of sizes which are taller so if there is additional space above your batteries, you might be able to fit larger batteries in the same footprint.  Some people have put additional batteries in other storage compartments and AGM batteries would be a good application there as they are sealed and eliminate the usual corrosion associated with lead acid batteries.

By the way, I assume your refrigerator is a 19 cubic foot refrigerator as a 19 cu. inch fridge would hardly fit one beer can!  We have a 21 cubic foot household refrigerator and it runs just fine with our four 6V AGM battery set-up.  We don't do long term boondocking and when we must, we run the generator to recharge.  Twice a day, morning and evening, for a couple of hours is all it needs.  For overnight, even when running the furnace, our batteries carry us through.

[obedb]

Think of the Tesla meltdowns. Did I read that air lines will no longer carry lithium batteries as freight?  Heard many negatives, but I would have to do some research.

[jbrunson]

http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/

 

These two have been doing lithium batteries for five years.... They are different beasts .... If I had the cash, I would do it.

[fly2low]

I am scheduled for my install at the same time frame.  Your price is good for the size you are putting in.  My price is much higher, but includes a solar system, charger, new inverter and monitors for the system.

While lithium batteries are not "tried and true", they are far from the bleeding edge.  Recommend doing some research. 

[chp007kd40]

Thanks for all the replies. Camping World ruined my 4 golf cart batteries so I'm thinking out of the box, but not wanting to throw money away. Side note: Camping World raised their shop rates to over $146.00. They are just ridiculous since their actual worth is so, so much lower.

Okay, guess what I was presented with as an upgrade to my golf cart batteries. My local solar business (Advance Power Redding) suggested I could get a better system than just Lithium battery (800ah) upgrade and six solar panels. AM Solar is suggesting an installed price around $16,000.00. That really did seem high. Advanced Power is suggesting a more efficient system by going to a more residential set-up using 48 volt 13KWH LIPO-4 battery with 6 Panasonic 325 watt solar panels (1950 watt), outback fm-60, outback 3648 inverters, auto start, etc.. The thought behind this is take care of your 110v issues and then the 12v issues are easy to deal with instead of the reverse. This system is capable of running my two ton a/c unit, fridge, micro, TV's etc.

That is the sort of thinking that is out there right now. Not saying I will or can do it, but I want too. The space required is around 42x26x22. It will take up my entire entertainment center compartment outside, but we never used it that much. The weight is about the same as my golf cart batteries. The Magnum product 2800 will be gone so as not to complicate the system with redundancy. We are still working on price, but what would normally be around $26k. I know, sounds a bit "out-there", but we really don't like RV parks so much.

Another advantage would be that I could drive along side my home office and power it up also from the motorhome in case the electric grid goes down. I think we are all thinking something like that could actually happen with the way things are going in this world. Especially Calif., they wouldn't know which page the turn-on switch was located amongst the 26 million pages of regulations we have in this state. Sucky system, just sayin'.

 

 

[jleamont]

8 hours ago, chp007kd40 said:

Thanks for all the replies. Camping World ruined my 4 golf cart batteries so I'm thinking out of the box, but not wanting to throw money away. Side note: Camping World raised their shop rates to over $146.00. They are just ridiculous since their actual worth is so, so much lower.

Okay, guess what I was presented with as an upgrade to my golf cart batteries. My local solar business (Advance Power Redding) suggested I could get a better system than just Lithium battery (800ah) upgrade and six solar panels. AM Solar is suggesting an installed price around $16,000.00. That really did seem high. Advanced Power is suggesting a more efficient system by going to a more residential set-up using 48 volt 13KWH LIPO-4 battery with 6 Panasonic 325 watt solar panels (1950 watt), outback fm-60, outback 3648 inverters, auto start, etc.. The thought behind this is take care of your 110v issues and then the 12v issues are easy to deal with instead of the reverse. This system is capable of running my two ton a/c unit, fridge, micro, TV's etc.

That is the sort of thinking that is out there right now. Not saying I will or can do it, but I want too. The space required is around 42x26x22. It will take up my entire entertainment center compartment outside, but we never used it that much. The weight is about the same as my golf cart batteries. The Magnum product 2800 will be gone so as not to complicate the system with redundancy. We are still working on price, but what would normally be around $26k. I know, sounds a bit "out-there", but we really don't like RV parks so much.

Another advantage would be that I could drive along side my home office and power it up also from the motorhome in case the electric grid goes down. I think we are all thinking something like that could actually happen with the way things are going in this world. Especially Calif., they wouldn't know which page the turn-on switch was located amongst the 26 million pages of regulations we have in this state. Sucky system, just sayin'.

 

 

Wow, that's an impressive amount of power! When you turn off the lights at night will you glow being surrounded by that much electricity in such a small area? 

[hermanmullins]

$16,000.00/ $26,000.00 Wow

That amounts to between 1,600 and 2,600 6 volt golf cart batteries. I could go through 5 to 10 coaches before I would even get close to buying that many batteries.

Just think of how many people you could feed in China with that money. Wait, forget that, they are feeding us now.

Herman

[wildebill308]

I will stick to my 6 volt golf cart batteries. You know they come in different sizes and the capacity varies quite a bit.

Bill

[chp007kd40]

That was good Herman.

The reason I'm throwing this out there for discussion is because AM Solar in Oregon has a long waiting time to even visit my coach. There are a lot of coaches like mine (Itasca Horizon 05 40KD, same as Vectra by Winnebago) that have very limited space for batteries. Had to modify my battery box tray to accommodate the golf cart batteries and not so easy to pull out to clean and inspect.

When I see other coaches at the Redmond OR. convention, I can only dream of having such flexibility in batteries. We live in such a beautiful part of the country that going to an RV park is not that great and since we don't have a lot of humidity to deal with the coach is used much different than when we are in the East or South part of the country.

The thought of running the entire coach including a/c (2ton) is quite intriguing when you think of all other possibilities. Just thinking out loud.

[fly2low]

I am installing my lithiums inside the RV.  Have space for it directly above the unit holding my other electronics.  The old battery location will be converted to a "tool shed".

[fly2low]

And, I'm going with AM Solar.

[rsbilledwards]

Here is another 2 bits: First visit this site and read the solar puzzle and then as much as you can take in... https://handybobsolar.wordpress.com/

Bob is an electrical engineer building a home in Montana completely off the grid using 8 Crown 260s to support the house systems ( I am wrong here still Crowns but bigger).  I haven't any experience with the L batteries but the cost seems absurd when one considers the alternatives. I am not knocking anyone here.

I did two installs last summer and the cost was nowhere near what you are discussing. I am using in my Panther, 6 Crown 260 amp hour batteries which is over kill and a 6 panel 160 watt Charmanah Canadian panels which is overkill. I am using Bogart Engineering a Trimetric TM2030 to  control 2 SC-2030 chargers to control 62 amps from solar panels in a 12 volt battery system. The same components can be used on a 24 volt system.

For that kind of money, up grade the battery tray to a roll out. It took me two days to install the system, including removal of the refrigerator in order to have easy access from wiring entering interior of the coach from above and exiting into the cargo bay.

The other components other than the 500 ma shunt and temperature sensor came from Home Depot. I correct myself here, the #4 wire and the heavy 2/0 wire came from a welding supply house with ends installed at no additional cost.  The total for all of this is under $5,000 retail. How much can the labor rate be, $100 an hour, that is still only $1,600 and the bill is now $6,600? This is on the high side with fluff!! 

The lithium batteries...there are better choices, if Green is one they are not and are unproven for the life expectancy against cost and there is enough to worry about with respect to fire in one of these coaches with out adding a known potential.

 I think I can dry camp with the best of those that have solar installed and I did it for a lot less than what I listed here.  Good luck

Bill Edwards

  PS thanks for the edit  B

[chp007kd40]

Thank you for the replies. I wrote it all down Bill and I am going to discuss this again with Advanced Power. They seem to be really sold on Lithium and the model displayed in their showroom is impressive. Your all right about the cost of these newer products, a little concerning. David

[klandersnitrox]

You should check out these articles on Wheeling it about there install. They just went the whole way with Lithium and a ton of solar power. 4 great detailed articles on what they did

http://wheelingit.us/category/solar-power-2/

Keith Landers
www.mhrig.com

 

[TheKassman]

 

[TheKassman]

Just now, TheKassman said:

 

Lithium batteries have some advantages.  First you can run them down to 20% where it is recommended not to run AGM past 50%.  Consistently running AGMs below 50% will shorten their life appreciably; Lithium have a life expectancy of 10 years.  But perhaps one of the most important aspects is weight.  Some suggestions have been to add more batteries to increase you staying power while dry camping.  Before adding additional batteries determine where you would locate them.  Adding additional batteries at 75lbs. each can overload your axle end and/or unbalance your coach to a point where safety is an issue.  I have weighed a number of Motor Homes that exceed axle  end weight and batteries are usually at the root of the problem. Overloading an axle places excess wear and tear on suspension parts, brakes, steering and tires, all contributing to safety issues.

[Bounder1]

I have had a 300AH 'SmartBattery' Lithium Battery in my coach for almost 2 years. Each cell is sealed stainless steel, so no fire risk. Integrated electronics controls contained inside the battery case manage both charge and discharge functions. We upgraded the Magnum Inverter software (by replacing the circuit board to the latest version) to maximize the control over the system and this allowed us to customize settings to the battery.  

We can easily go an evening with TV and Satellite use (3+ hours), with ample LED lights on, then in the morning we can use an electric coffee maker to brew a carafe of coffee. Our engine alternator (160 amp) charges the battery in about 1.5 hours. If it is really low and we are not driving, the generator powering the inverter/charger (100 amps) will run 2.5 to 3 hours max to bring it up to fully charge (which is about 1/2 the time it took with the AGM original batteries). We regularly dry camp and have never run out of power taking reasonable measures to reduce current drain.

I'd go for a smaller amp-hour capacity (300-400AH) and spend time optimizing the system. Your fridge draws less power than the electric heaters in an absorption fridge and depending upon your solar panel setup, you could almost eliminate generator use. We looked at the economics of installing solar versus use of the diesel generator and the case is definitely in favor of using the generator for dependable power unless you can angle the panels to the sun and are in an area that gets a lot of consistent sunlight each day.

Granted there are different thoughts about generator vs solar (green energy and all) however your initial outlay sounds very high for the perceived benefits.  I doubt that we'll ever change the coach battery in this coach and the additional volt of consistent power increases the water pump pressure and certainly makes the onboard systems more efficient.  If you want to read about our installation check out our TechTips #82-84 at www.rv-partsplus.com   

Good luck with the conversion!

[dickandlois]

Bounder 1, Welcome to the FMCA Forum ! 

Took a look at the information you posted regarding Tech Tips on Lithium batteries. 

Thanks Rich.

[garyhaynes]

CHP

The prices you are seeing from AMSolar are spot on for a fully installed system.  AMS is changing over to Victron branded components which have been in use for some time in the marine industry.  WheelingIt used Marvin Braun at www.precisionrv.com for their upgrade.  Marc uses products from a mix of supplier including AMSolar for panels and Elite Power Solutions for the lithium batteries.  

Depending on what you are starting with the major components are the panels, a charge controller, the batteries and usually a new inverter/charger like the Magnum Hybrid 3000W.  The current inverter/charger you have may not have the programming available to use with a lithium setup.

In my case I had 740W of panels, the Magnum, BlueSky IPN controller, 400ah of Elite batteries installed.  Took Marv about 3 1/2 days.  Since he travels we did the install in my storage facility.  This was last May and I couldn't be happier.  

It has a cost but depending on your situation and how you use your setup can make sense.  I like to boondock and stay off grid.  Works great.

And for our type of installs I would only use someone who has installed in coaches and trailers.  With lithiums even more important to have an experienced installer.  Someone with lots of sticks and bricks might know the systems really well but not how to integrate into a coach.

[DrDaveMA]

A couple of thoughts.

The Lithium batteries being placed in motor homes are Lithium-iron, the batteries that airlines have banned are Lithium-ion.

When you go to a Lithium-iron battery the useful capacity is down to the 10-20% range so you do not need the AH of a wet cell which you can only draw down to about 70% before you damage them.

My suspicion is that since there is not a lot of competition the pricing is high.

[unw1red]

I am getting ready to change out my six 6V flooded cells (660AH/330AH usable) for four 12V 100AH LiFePO4 batteries with smart logic. As stated in other posts, the newer LiFePO4 (Lithium iron phosphate) batteries are far more safe than true Lithium-Ion batteries. 

I am changing batteries and adding solar for three reasons; reduction in battery weight on steer axle, higher usable battery capacity and no maintenance. We use our MH home at a number of softball tournaments for my daughter, so boondocking will be quite frequent. The solar gives us the ability to get a recharge during the sunny part of the day while we are at the fields and not using the coach. We have AGS, but sometimes genny restrictions preclude us from using it at opportune times. We want to be smart about our power usage, but don't want to have to conserve to the point of not enjoying our MH.

I will be having two Hyundai 260W panels installed. These panels include the ability to "compensate" for partial shading of the panels without the traditional loss of charging power of normal panels. They are one of the top rated manufacturers of this technology in the world.

I also want to be cognizant of the use of fossil fuels while I am boondocking. I am not an extremist, but I do want to do my part for Mother Earth. I understand there will be an elongated return on my investment, but I also know that it gives me the capability to camp when and where I want without the imminent fear of running out of power without shore power or genny.

The price the OP was quoted appears to be inline with quotes I have received. Good luck with your installation.