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Banks EconoMind® Diesel Tuner


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#1 WILDEBILL308

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 09:41 AM

What I really need now is feedback on Banks EconoMind® Diesel Tuner + electronic DynaFact pyrometer and boost gauge assembly.

This is for the Cummins 2003 –2007 5.9 ISB-CR engine. Has anyone installed this system and what were your results.

Thanks for your input
Bill
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#2 johnmicb

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:33 PM

Bill,

I had a local shop install the EconoMind® Diesel Tuner + Banks iQ® in my 2005 Fleetwood Bounder (5.9L ISB-CR with Allison 3000MH).  The tuner has a choice of 6 settings.  To date, I have only run it in #2 (economy), but you can feel the difference in torque.  Before getting the IQ, I had no way of knowing my EGT.  I normally pull a 2012 Jeep Grand Cherokee.  I can now see that with the Jeep in tow, my EGT is around 950ºF at 63-64 mph, on relatively flat land. Pulling a normal overpass, the EGT ramps up to +1100ºF (there is a direct correlation between %boost and EGT, but it is difficult to capture all these values and drive at the same time). 

 

I made one trip to what we call "the hill country" around Austin, Texas.  While maintaining 64 mph in the "hills", my EGT exceeded 1300ºF, which is where I have my alarm set.  I downshifted to 5th gear, maintained speed and flow with the traffic, while the EGT fell out of the "red zone".  I spoke with the shop that installed the Banks system and told them I would like to lower the EGT and asked for their recommendation (larger turbo? better free flow exhaust?, other?).  The shop owner called and talked to his Tech at Banks.  Their recommendation was to put the tuner in "6" versus the "2" setting I had been using.  (As you probably know, each number represents a progression in horsepower, with "6" delivering the most horsepower). They said the tuner had a fail safe set at 1350ºF. 

 

I was just given this recommendation yesterday and was actually surfing the net for other people's experiences when I ran across your post, so I don't have any further results at this time on EGT.  Banks has a good deal of information on performance using a dyno and real time testing (http://www.bankspowe...esel-tuner-test) but they never mention what level they are running the tuner and have no reference of value to EGT. I am extremely satisfied with the increase in acceleration (from a dead stop and merging into traffic).  I am also encouraged by the ability to maintain a constant speed in the "hills", but the court is still out on the EGT issue.

 

We plan on making a trip to Colorado and I would prefer not to have a constant eye on the EGT gauge, nor be playing the Gear/Speed/EGT game.  I am unsure as to the rationale behind putting the tuner in the "6" setting.  The turner does alter many different components.  I guess I will have to wait and see.  I would have to believe Banks understands the issues better than I.


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#3 WILDEBILL308

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 09:20 PM

Johnmicb,
Thanks for your response and welcome to the forum. I have the EconoMind® Diesel Tuner + Banks iQ® in a box waiting for my avalible time and the weather to cooperate. I plan on doing the install my self. What shop did your install and what did they charge? I plan on having it done pretty soon as I am planing a trip in the hill country my self. Going to Fredricksberg and the Bandera area the end of next mounth.
Bill


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#4 johnmicb

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Posted 25 February 2013 - 11:49 AM

Bill,

I live in Spring Texas and have found a repair shop (Woodlands Car Care) that seems to do a much better job of taking care of my motorhome than the big boys (Camping World & Holiday World).  Another large repair facility in Houston is Demontrond, which I have also used.  I prefer Woodlands Car Care.  I have only asked them to perform "chassis" work up to this point.  I have not had any "coach" issues since moving to them.  The install was part of a good deal of work they were to perform.  I took the coach in after it began to smoke heavily upon acceleration.  I had two bad injectors (had all six replaced) and had a cracked manifold that needed to be replaced, along with a few other odds and ends, the total estimate was +$10,000 (the shop was purchasing the EconoMind® Diesel Tuner + Banks iQ®).  I called the shop owner and told him I thought I was being double dipped on the labor.  The manifold would need to be drilled for the temperature probe, but they were installing a new manifold.  He agreed to knock off $800 on the total package, but I cannot remember the cost of the tuner and installation (without the other work performed).  They did have some issues with the installation.  It was originally scheduled to take one week for all the work to be performed.  It took them two weeks, a good deal of frustration and several calls to Banks. It turned out that I had some wires that had been burned by being too close to the engine and it kept giving them error codes.  There were also some ground wire issues, not associated with the install, but effecting the install.

 

My next outing (to test running it in the "6" position), is not until March 15th.  We are going with some friends and stay in the Lagrange area.  There will not be any hills involved and I may or may not take the toad, so will not be an apples to apples comparison. Weather permitting, we plan to load up the motorcycles (a scooter in my case) and tour the 7 "Painted Churches" near Schulenburg.  If you are like me and never heard of the "Painted Churches", google the subject.  Very interesting, imigrant based history.  There is a painted church near Fredricksberg. 

When you get your tuner installed, I would be interested in feedback on your EGT.  Do you presently have a way of measuring your EGT (pyrometer)?  It would be nice to know a "before" and "after" install.  I have a Bounder 37U with the same engine and transmission as you.  Previously, I was towing a Nissan Sentra on a tow dolly, but at that time had no gauge to tell me EGT.  I tow the Jeep four wheels down and it is considerably heavier than the Sentra.


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#5 WILDEBILL308

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Posted 26 February 2013 - 03:19 PM

I don’t think we are going any where until the 19th or 20th of Mar when we head for Bandera TX. I hope I can get mine installed by then. Did you know you can run on the #1 seating and it runs as if the Banks was not installed? You could see what the temperatures are then move up to whatever setting and see what the temperatures run. Banks claims they have a built in max temp that when reached will cut back so you won’t over temp the engine.

 

I also am interested in what temps I am running that is one of the reasons to get the Banks setup.

 

Bill


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#6 johnmicb

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:18 PM

Our next trip will be 15-March, so about the same time as you. I had forgotten the fact that the "#1" setting would return everything to factory. I will start in "1" and work may way up to "6" and try and record all the information. As you might expect, as the boost rises, so does the EGT.  The maximum boost I have seen is 34 psi, with the EGT rising very rapidly (#2 setting). It will be interesting to see if the correlation between boost and EGT is the same in each of the settings (1-6).

 

I have read that the built in maximum setting is 1350ºF.  This assumes you put the sensor exactly where they recommend on the manifold.  I am not sure what happens when you reach 1350ºF......defaults into a deceleration mode?

 

I have been looking at the next step to take in case Banks' recommendation to run in "6" does not sufficiently lower the EGT.  Following the air in and air out logic, I have been looking at the aeroturbine muffler.  I don't know that I believe their hype about the "vortex effect", but it is a free flow muffler without any restrictions.  It would get very involved to try and alter the intake side of the equation.  I will post the numbers after the next trip. 


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#7 WILDEBILL308

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 08:27 PM

It is my understanding that when you reach 1350ºF it de-fuels so the EGT temperature comes down. I haven’t been able to check this but I think the higher the number the higher your EGT may run.


I have  been looking at the aeroturbine muffler. I too don't know that I believe their hype about this muffler but I did believe the hype on the Banks 4 in turbo muffler. I have installed one but don’t have enough mileage on it yet to say if it helps. Not much louder than stock,by the way it fit as an exact replacement for the stock muffler I was able to use the stock clamps and hangers.


Did you know you can check for upgrades to your economind and IQ on Banks web site?
Bill


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#8 johnmicb

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Posted 19 March 2013 - 04:20 PM

I have some limited results from a trip this past weekend. I did not pull the toad on this trip. All results were based on setting the cruise at 65mph. I have my IQ displaying EGT, Boost% and Power%. Engine & Transmission temperature are off to the left of the screen. This trip did not include any hills, so I took I recorded a couple of values on relatively flat land and one while pulling an over pass. I recorded only 3 events due to the consistency of the numbers.

IQ Setting – “6”
Terrain           Speed                 EGT                        Boost                   Power
Flat terrain     65 mph         EGT 1000                Boost 20%,              Power 0
Flat terrain     65 mph         EGT 980                  Boost 17%,              Power 0
Over Passes  65 mph         EGT 1135-1200       Boost 33-36%          Power  0


As it turns out, using the Cruise Control was a mistake. I had noticed the “Power” reading escalating while accelerating, reaching 100% as I applied more acceleration. I initially thought the “Power” went to zero when cruising speed was obtained. This is not the case. For some reason, the “Power” goes to zero when you switch on the cruise control. If you maintain your speed manually, the “Power” will have a reading other than zero. I found this out when almost home. At 65 mph, the “Power” was ~34%. This makes my numbers relatively useless because you cannot see the relationship between “Boost” & “Power”. Remember that I was told by Banks Technical (thru my mechanic) to put the IQ on “6” when I was inquiring about lowering my EGT. I had been running on “2” (economy). ) I now have a hypothesis as to why Banks recommended running in “6”:
• It is apparent that “Boost” increases the EGT rapidly and more boost equal higher EGT
• It would stand to reason that the “2” setting would rely more heavily on Boost to generate HP, as this is the more “economical” than adding more fuel
• I believe “Power” is an indication that the tuner is adding greater quantities of fuel
I think the “6” setting strikes a balance between using increased fuel along with boost to obtain the required HP. For this to be correct, adding measured quantities of more fuel while not ramping up the boost as quickly would need to deliver lower EGT.
I think this could be proven (or disproven) by running the same test as before, but not using the cruise control so as to record the “Power”, then repeat the test after resetting the IQ to a “2” setting. If I am correct, the “2” setting should use more “Boost” and less “Power” under the same circumstances.
What do you think?
P.S. I ordered the Banks Banks 4" Stainless Steel Monster Exhaust Muffler today. Found it at Truck Accessory Liquidators for $100 and $19 shipping. Yes, I do know you can update the IQ. Seems it was a minor update, 2.16 to 2.18, if memory serves me correctly.


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#9 DickandLois

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:15 AM

Hi John,

 

Interesting that you do not or did not get the engine power output readings while the cruse was turned on.

I do not use the Banks system. Use VMSpc software and get the engine power levels with cruse on or off.

 

Have you questioned Banks in regards to the power level reading difference when cruse is on an off?

 

Rich. 


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#10 johnmicb

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 04:17 PM

Hi Rich,
I have not talked to Banks at any time during this process (i.e. purchase/install).  I have purposely had all communication take place between Banks and Woodlands Car Care (WCC). I had WCC buy and install the unit, putting WCC in the position of having to resolve all issues with Banks. The owner of WCC already had a tech guy at Banks, but through this installation process, I think their relationship has "matured", if you know what I mean.    
 
I have only made two trips with the Banks installed and I am just now starting to learn what it will do. I have pulled trailers for 30 years, but this is my first motorhome. What a learning curve! Prior to this I had an F250 Super Dury pulling a 32' trailer, but power and EGT were never an issue. (but I had 400 HP and the combined weight was not 30,000#'s).  I am just now getting comfortable with keeping up with all that is going on around me AND fiddling with the Banks.
 
I actually have two issues with the Banks I will have WCC look at the next time I take it in: 1) the cruise control issue with 0 Power reading and 2) On this last trip, the IQ display would all of a sudden stop producing any values. The screen would show hash marks where the numbers were supposed to appear. I could reset the unit and the output would appear again! I have had a ton of issues "ground related" on this coach. My gut is this is another "ground" issue. I will be taking it back to WCC after our outing over the long Easter weekend. I want them to install my Banks Monster Muffler (should arrive Monday, 24th). Not a hard job to do, but I have no time. I work in the oilfield and spend a good part of my life on an airplane. What limited time I have to tinker, I have used improving cosmetics (wood floor, changing out surround sound & LCD TVs, replacing inoperable sun shades/switches/relays, etc.). Mostly coach stuff...translated as honey do's. Haven't tackled any chassis issues to this point. My wife and I are looking forward to doing this full time. :)


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#11 WILDEBILL308

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Posted 27 March 2013 - 07:51 PM

Well shame on me I had a bunch of stuff come up and didn’t get my kit installed before my planed trip to Bandera. I haven’t filled up yet so I don’t know what my mileage was. I would like to make one trip that it wasn’t 4o mile an hour head winds or side winds.

Well I better get busy because we are going to northern New Mexico the end of next month.

I think it was interesting about the readings on cruise. I will be interested in what they say.

Bill


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#12 johnmicb

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:55 AM

Took another trip over Easter to La Hacienda RV resort on Lake Travis (Austin, Tx).  As with the last trip, I did not take the toad, only a scooter on the back of the coach.  This makes the values I recorded on this trip comparable to the previous trip, as everything is constant.  This time I did not use the cruise control so I could see and record the "Power" values.


The idea behind the comparison below was to try to evaluate what changes took place (EGT/Boost/Power) when running the IQ/Economind tuner in a '2" setting (economy) versus a "6" setting (maximum horsepower/troque.
 
IQ Power Setting: 2
Terrain           Speed                 EGT                        Boost                   Power
Flat terrain     65 mph            EGT 990                Boost 17%              Power 5
Flat terrain     70 mph            EGT 990                Boost 20%              Power 5
 
IQ Power Setting: 6
Terrain           Speed                 EGT                        Boost                   Power
Flat terrain     65 mph            EGT 1035              Boost 19%              Power 25
Flat terrain     70 mph            EGT 1035              Boost 22%              Power 25
 
Banks is not specific in their literature as to what changes are made to increase "Power".  A discussion around how "Power" can be enhanced includes: 1) adding more fuel, 2) adjusting the timing of when the fuel is added to the cylinder and 3) the shape of the injector discharge of fuel (there may be more, but these are the ones I remember).  I did not find a reference to which of these were used (i.e. a single approach, or a combination).  The inference is the Economind uses a combination of #1 & #2 (more fuel & injector timing).  That said, I did not see a benefit of running the IQ on the "6" setting in terms of reducing EGT, as was the recommendation from the Banks Tech Advisor when originally contacted about how to reduce the EGT (at the time, I was operating it on a "2" setting). There was certainly a discernible difference in acceleration throughout the power band while operating at "6", but the Boost was not lower, even with the substantial increase in "Power" reading. Boost values while running in "2" versus "6" shows the direct correlation between EGT and boost (EGT rises in concert with the boost). 


Note: While crossing Austin in route to the Park, I did encounter a very steep hill which required keeping the accelerator on the floor to attempt to keep my speed above 45 mph (speed limit 65 mph, rush hour traffic).  I did not have the chance to record all the numbers, but the banks turbo temperature alarm went off (I set it at 1300ºF) prior to reaching the top of the hill.  I got out of the throttle and manually began down shifting the transmission from 6th gear to 4th gear.  By the time I accomplished this task, I was at the top of the hill and the temp was no longer an issue. 
 
I am now in possession of the the Banks Banks 4" Stainless Steel Monster Exhaust Muffler.  I hope to get it installed before a planned trip over the Memorial Day weekend.  If so, I will record yet another set of values as comparison data. Not sure what options are left if the free flowing monster exhaust does not alleviate some of the EGT issues.  I certainly will not be headed to Colorado under the present operating conditions.


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#13 WILDEBILL308

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 07:28 PM

“That said, I did not see a benefit of running the IQ on the "6" setting in terms of reducing EGT, as was the recommendation from the Banks Tech Advisor when originally contacted about how to reduce the EGT (at the time, I was operating it on a "2" setting).”


I don’t think you will see a reduction in EGT running in the 6 setting as it would logicality produce more heat because you are working the engine harder. Perhaps the Banks Tech Advisor did not fully understand your question.


“Not sure what options are left if the free flowing monster exhaust does not alleviate some of the EGT issues.  I certainly will not be headed to Colorado under the present operating conditions.”


Now I don’t understand your concerns. You now have the ability to monitor your EGT and reduce power settings if they climb to high.
I think it would be informative to run in the “1” power setting as well when you do your next test. My curiosity is up about what mileage you are geting in each of the settings.


Bill


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#14 johnmicb

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:57 AM

The mpg is a difficult measure.  Just the variables of dragging a toad, or not, the terrian (hilly or predominately flat) and speed results in a large discrepancy in mpg.  To these variables, add in the IQ setting and I can only give you a range.  There can even be vairablility based on how much time you want to spend filling up the diesel tank.  Once the nozzle "clicks off", I can get another 5-7 gallons in the tank by slowly adding diesel, letting the air bleed and repeating this step many times. 
That said, here is my best shot from memory.  The best mileage I have achieved is 9.5 mpg (no toad, flat terrain, IQ setting of "2", predominately 60-62 mph).  The worst mileage has been 6.5 mpg, pulling a toad, a portion of the trip in the hill country and driving 70-75 mph on the interstate portion of the trip.
 
The reason for the comment about not going to Colorado:
While on the last trip to Austin, I had to climb a fairly steep hill (not a mountain, but a substantial grade).  The speed limit was 65 mph and it was rush hour traffic. The max EGT temperature (1350ºF) was reached as soon as I started up the hill and began trying to maintain 55-60 mph (I did not have the toad).  I began manually downshifting the transmission and finally reached 3rd gear before I got the temperature to drop below 1200ºF and only moderate throttle.  The idea was to find a gear which required a throttle position that would maintain the EGT temperature at an acceptable level (in my case, I chose 1200ºF).  At this point, I was down to 35 mph.  If I had given it more throttle, the temperature would have risen.  The mountains in Colorado are much steeper than this "hill" and I would pull the toad if i made a trip to Colorado.  I could easily envison ending up climbing in 2nd gear at 20-25 mph to keep the EGT under 1200ºF.  The general rule is that you should decend a mountain in the same gear it took to climb it, this would make for slow and tedious progress when venturing out west of Denver.  I don't think I would have the patience. 
The motorhome is in the shop at this moment having the Banks muffler installed.  We have a trip planned for Memorial Day weekend, again back to the hill country.  Plan to run the IQ in "2" & "6" so as to get comparitive numbers.


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#15 desertdeals69

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:27 PM

The mpg is a difficult measure.  Just the variables of dragging a toad, or not, the terrian (hilly or predominately flat) and speed results in a large discrepancy in mpg.  To these variables, add in the IQ setting and I can only give you a range.  There can even be vairablility based on how much time you want to spend filling up the diesel tank.  Once the nozzle "clicks off", I can get another 5-7 gallons in the tank by slowly adding diesel, letting the air bleed and repeating this step many times. 
That said, here is my best shot from memory.  The best mileage I have achieved is 9.5 mpg (no toad, flat terrain, IQ setting of "2", predominately 60-62 mph).  The worst mileage has been 6.5 mpg, pulling a toad, a portion of the trip in the hill country and driving 70-75 mph on the interstate portion of the trip.
 
The reason for the comment about not going to Colorado:
While on the last trip to Austin, I had to climb a fairly steep hill (not a mountain, but a substantial grade).  The speed limit was 65 mph and it was rush hour traffic. The max EGT temperature (1350ºF) was reached as soon as I started up the hill and began trying to maintain 55-60 mph (I did not have the toad).  I began manually downshifting the transmission and finally reached 3rd gear before I got the temperature to drop below 1200ºF and only moderate throttle.  The idea was to find a gear which required a throttle position that would maintain the EGT temperature at an acceptable level (in my case, I chose 1200ºF).  At this point, I was down to 35 mph.  If I had given it more throttle, the temperature would have risen.  The mountains in Colorado are much steeper than this "hill" and I would pull the toad if i made a trip to Colorado.  I could easily envison ending up climbing in 2nd gear at 20-25 mph to keep the EGT under 1200ºF.  The general rule is that you should decend a mountain in the same gear it took to climb it, this would make for slow and tedious progress when venturing out west of Denver.  I don't think I would have the patience. 
The motorhome is in the shop at this moment having the Banks muffler installed.  We have a trip planned for Memorial Day weekend, again back to the hill country.  Plan to run the IQ in "2" & "6" so as to get comparitive numbers.

Where is the thermocouple located?


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#16 WILDEBILL308

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 11:07 PM

desertdeals69
The thermocouple is located in the exhaust just before the turbo. I didn’t get mine installed so I don’t have any idea what temps I was running pulling Raton pass but I didn’t have any problem. I actually found a campsite above the pass. 
johnmicb
I think you should run in 1 as well as 2 and 6. Running in 1 will give you a base line as it is the stock power setting.
I think the “power” number is the percentage over stock power.
Bill


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#17 johnmicb

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 02:13 PM

Desertdeals69, you are correct, the exhaust manifold is drilled and the thermocouple installed pre-turbo.  Speaking of the manifold, this entire adventure started when I took the motorhome to the shop due to excessive smoking.  I had a cracked manifold, two injectors were stopped up and two others were partially plugged.  I bought the motorhome used and the previous owner had evidently exceeded the max EGT for a sufficient amount of time to crack the manifold.  There was no pyrometer, or any means of monitoring the EGT at this time.  Since they were going to remove/replace the manifold, I thought this was as good a time as any to install the Banks system.  I would at least save a bit of labor cost.  You can drill and install the thermocouple with the manifold in place, but you run the risk of introducing metal filings.


 

Anyway, I have now installed the Banks Monster Exhaust so all the pieces are in place.  We are headed back to the Hill Country this weekend so I will have a chance to record any differences the exhaust might make (skeptical I will see anything).


 

 


 

desertdeals69,


 

I will record the information in #1, #2 & #6.  It looks to me after reveiwing the previous data, the turbo boost pressure is essentially unaffected by escalating the "IQ number".  The value that escalates appreciably  is the "Power".  I believe the "Power" is explained as the percent fueling over stock.  On some of the equipment Banks sells (i.e. Banks Bullet), they don't use the term "Power", but use the term "Fueling". 


 

It's explained as: "The FUELING percentage is displayed. Stock is always 100; higher numbers are stock + additional fueling from Banks Bullet. (140 indicates 40% more fuel delivery with Banks Bullet.)


 

This would make sense, as there are three basic concepts to improving performance: 1) more air in (i.e. boost), 2) more fuel and 3) more air out (exhaust) .  I know it gets more complex with the timing of the fuel injection, etc., but that's the 10,000' view. 


 

As I run through the numbers on the IQ, I should see the boost remain fairly constant ( +2%) while the "Power" value rises as the IQ setting increases.  This is exactly what I saw in the 2-April post. 


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2011 Monaco Knight 36PFT

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Allison 3000MH

Flat Towing Jeep Grand Cherokee


#18 desertdeals69

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Posted 30 April 2013 - 03:02 PM

If you use a Road Relay or similar you can tell you mpg instantly as you are driving.  You can switch settings and not only tell the mpg but also the percentage of throttle setting when using cruise.


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#19 johnmicb

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:01 PM

Found a Road Relay 4 (used).  The guy wanted $800 for it. Don't know what the newer Road Relay 5 costs, but I think I will pass.  I have about reached my limit on the money I want to put into a motorhome of this vintage.


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2011 Monaco Knight 36PFT

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#20 johnmicb

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 07:51 AM

The quest to lower the EGT on the Bounder has come to an end.  I did install the Banks Monster Exhaust and saw no difference.  I traded in the Bounder yesterday on a new Monaco Knight which does not utilize a Cummins.  It has an International Max Force 10 (9.3L) diesel with 350HP and 1150 ft-lbs of torque. 

Thanks for all the feedback and safe travels


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2011 Monaco Knight 36PFT

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Allison 3000MH

Flat Towing Jeep Grand Cherokee





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