23 replies to this topic

[desertdeals69]

I have been testing a K&N filter on my ISB 275 for 2 years. It was a pre-production unit. Went 8,000 miles and had the oil analyzed and came back with a good report. I just installed one of the first production filters. They are now available from K&N.

[wolfe10]

Historically, both Cummins and Caterpillar have recommended AGAINST K&N filters.

Is this some new technology or just a new application of the old technology?

What I find compelling about Caterpillar's statement is that they don't sell air filters, so they "have no skin in the game" when they made that statement.

Both suggest that, yes, they can let in more air, but also more dirt than conventional filters.

[desertdeals69]

They do have a different material. You can read about it on their website. The fact that I got a clean bill of health on the oil analysis leads me to believe that it is doing a good job. Have you seen the recomendation from Cummins that they are against the K&N filter because when I had a meeting with the engineering department and I had mentioned it to them they said they could never get a statement from Cummins.

[RVerOnTheMove]

Have you only traveled 8,000 in the last 2 years? Did you have no oil change from year to year or is the oil really only a year old with 4,000 miles on it?
When you say you had a good report, what is the oil analays testing for? Dirt? Fuel? Anti-freeze? I would suspect that a bad filter used for one year and 4,000 miles would likely not show any issues related to the air filter no matter what. However, what do I know!

[wolfe10]

Others who have attended more recent Cummins seminars than I have can probably give more specific, recent info on Cummins position. I am usually tied up giving another seminar when the Cummins seminar is presented, so it has been several years since I have attended one. The question often comes up in the Q&A at both the Caterpillar and Cummins seminars..

I guess my basic question is what was air filter minder reading using the regular filter that lead you to consider the K&N. If restriction, "fine tune" the intake system (side of coach to turbo). That may (or may not) include a larger filter housing/filter.

The air filter (OE) on our coach is so oversized, I have never seen an air filter minder reading of 5 column inches.

[desertdeals69]

When I changed the filter to the production unit it was reading 10. A standard filter was slightly higher with the same mileage. I built the air intake system using 6 inch tubing with air entering at the top rear driver side.

[desertdeals69]

Bill,
The analysis was done by Blackstone and was very complete. No dirt, fuel, or antifreeze. The oil is Rotella T6 synthetic and had 12,600 miles on it with 8,000 on it with the K&N. I have never changed my oil yearly in over 400,000 miles of motorhoming in 36 years and 10 motorhomes.

[RVerOnTheMove]

I built the air intake system using 6 inch tubing with air entering at the top rear driver side.

While not a difficult thing to do, I am getting really confused. Is this a standard air filter replacement? You just took the manufacturers air filter out and installed the K&N or have you (as you described) "built" an air intake system along with replacing the existing air filter.
What is Desert Deals? Are you selling the K&N filters?

[desertdeals69]

The K&N filter is a direct replacement housing and filter, same size as the oem filter. The inside filter media is cleanable and reuseable for about 300,000 miles. The intake system I built is the tubing from the outside of the coach to the filter which is located in the engine compartment. desertdeals69 is my handle. No, I do not sell K&N filters. I do beta testing for a number of RV products, this filter is just one of the items.

[RVerOnTheMove]

Don't manufactures recommend an oil change at least on an annual basis at a minimum and a mileage number as a maximum? My coach has to have the oil changed annually or 10,000 miles but I have an older coach so I actually am asking a question and not trying to be rude or sarcastic.
I have also done a few (not a lot) oil analysis' over the years and I don't remember a dirt entry. Did I miss this? Could you post a scan of the analysis? I would like to see what yours looks like. That may really not be necessary since we are not talking about a lot of miles anyway.

[wolfe10]

Bill,

Oil analysis includes "Silicon" content and, at least on the oil sample form I pulled out on our engine is expressed in PPM (Parts Per Million). It reflects amount of dirt entry into the oil.

[RVerOnTheMove]

I would not have read "silicone" as dirt. Thanks for that information.

[wolfe10]

I would not have read "silicone" as dirt. Thanks for that information.

I agree. I would have read "silica" as dirt, but the analysis has an explanation on the back of the test results and that is what it says.

Brett

[FieldEngineer]

Oil lab analysis instrumentation looks at atomic elements. Silicon (Si) is a component of 'silica' (dust). As a former Cat guy with nearly 20 years then 22 more years with Cummins, neither manufacturer specifically states that the K&N air filter is not approved nor approved. Both engine comanies specify to the chassis builder that they select an air cleaner system that will provide a minimum overall efficiency rating of 99.7xx% minimum. K&N products have claimed that their maximum efficiency is 96%....that would be a complete failure in an air intake system. Caterpillar has stated in print that use of non-CAT recommended parts will not void the warranty neither do they cover the failure from use of such parts....it is up to that part's manufacturer to stand behind their product. (Paraphrased). Cummins says the same but not as plainly as Caterpillar.

Gary Spires
Retired Cummins Field Engineer

[Spike45]

Here is a portion of the Cummins Technical Bulletin on engine oil and analysis.


Table 3: Oil Contamination Guidelines
Property Guideline
Viscosity change at 100° C
(ASTM-D445)
±1 SAE viscosity grade or 5cSt from the new oil
Fuel Dilution 5 percent
Total base number (TBN)
(ASTM D-4739)
2.5 number minimum or half new oil value or equal to
total acid number (TAN)
Water content ASTM (D-95) 0.5 percent maximum
Potential Contaminants:
Silicone (Sl) 15 ppm increase over new oil
Sodium (Na) 20 ppm increase over new oil
Boron ( 25 ppm increase over new oil
Potassium (K) 20 ppm increase over new oil
Soot Midrange B and C
All Other
Engines
CES-20078 and CES-
20081
3.0 percent 7.5 percent
CES-20076 3.0 percent 6.3 percent
CES-20072 3.0 percent 5.0 percent
CES-20075 1.5 percent 1.5 percent
The contamination guidelines presented above are guidelines only. This does not mean values
that fail on the acceptable side of these guidelines can be interpreted as indicating the oil is
suitable for further service.

Take note that the above particle contaminant levels are based on an initial NEW oil analysis. If you do not have that analysis, then the silicon level of 25 PPM or greater could be an indicator of dusting. If there had been a prior engine repair where silicon rubber gasket sealers were used, you may get a peak in Si as that has been proven to be a source of silicon but a benign one.

[desertdeals69]

After 12,000 miles, 4.000 before and 8,000 after installing the K&N filter Blackstone lab found 5 ppm silicon.

[RVerOnTheMove]

I am going to stick with the manufacturers recommended filter (and no manufacturer recommends K&N). Do disrespect to Desertdeals, just my own personal choice.

[desertdeals69]

Manufacturers use the least expensive filters to do the job. Thats why they don't recommend a premium filter such as K&N.

[wolfe10]

Manufacturers use the least expensive filters to do the job. Thats why they don't recommend a premium filter such as K&N.

Not sure I would agree with that statement. Both Cummins and Caterpillar recommend traditional air filters over the K&N style filters. And at least in Caterpillar's case, they have "no skin in the game", since they do not make air filters for on-highway applications. It is more a matter that the engine manufacturers want to minimize the dirt that gets to the engine.

So, if you are running high air filter minder readings (restrictions in air filter system) my suggestion is to start by "tuning up" your air plumbing: Larger diameter, smooth wall fewer or more gentle turns from side of coach to air filter. Many chassis makers just send the chassis to the coach builder with flex hose, and in many cases there is a LOT of excess hosing that contributes to restriction.

If that does not reduce restriction to an acceptable level, look to see if you can fit a larger filter housing in the available space. Take your measurements to a truck wrecking yard and look for a housing that size and inlet/outlet size. Should be very inexpensive. Then just replace the filter element with a new one.

Brett

[desertdeals69]

I'm not talking about the engine manufacturers but rather the coach builder. He's the one watching the dollars. I have had this disscussion with several coach builders.